Dear stamps collectors,


We have noticed that some inexperienced collectors were buying stamps without knowing that they were not official issues. If buyers knew that the stamps were not officially issued, we believe that they might have changed their mind.

Fortunately, most of the sellers do not try to hide this information from their buyers and even if there is a slight chance that the stamps are official, they prefer saying they are not. But they all use different terms and ways to describe unofficial issues.

Therefore, what the @admin157 and myself are currently doing is to establish some standards; we ask all the sellers concerned to add the words BOGUS or FORGERY or FAKE or PRIVATE ISSUE, etc... written in capital letters in the titles. If the sellers are not sure of the origin, we also ask them to mention it in the title. This way, if we apply the same rule to all the sellers, they will all be treated equally and the buyers will know what they are buying.

However, a list of terms needs to be drawn up. Many sellers have already suggested some terms to be added to this list but inexperienced collectors will be very unlikely to understand these terms and this new regulation would be pointless.

This is why I am now asking for your help and advice.


Thank you

hi pascal,
i personally think the rules of the APS should apply. if the stamp is not expertized without a certificate or signed, it should be stated. if it is a fake it should be marked on the back of the stamp. i brought up these points several months ago to the site as i saw many fakes being offered but no markings on the stamp were obvious to insure that they were indeed fakes, forgerier, reprints, or otherwise. there were dubious sellers out there on ebay recently and still are selling fakes and it is getting out of hand. the novice collector doesn't often know the difference and can be easily duped. we older and more experienced collectors, and often members of the APS and other philatelic organizations are guardians against these practices. and it is up to us to help safeguard and protect the standards of our hobby. and it is also seb's responsibility as an APS member to do the same on his site, period. i applaud his efforts to finally do the right thing. this very subject was brought up at my stamp club meeting, of which i am an officer of almost 10 years, by one of our prominent members. so i know that it is a very real concern to all of us philatelists. i wish you success in your endeavors. the APS can and will help you with your rules i am sure. please contact them for assistance. take care my cousin.
a bientot,
cajunsr.

I regret to say that Americans can over-do these things.

There are some very nice Italian "riconi" of expensive Italian coins, and some very nice British reproductions of Greek and Roman coins. These would however fool nobody, especially as the Italian ones are the wrong weight for silver or gold, and the British ones have very discreet letters tucked away indicating the manufacturer, often WRL. The British ones are for sale in reputable museums -- some are copied from coins in the Ashmolean (University) Museum in Oxford and are sold there, and they are widely sold in public museums in France and Italy, and at genuine Roman sites in Europe. Quite an export, actually.

When such things are made in the USA, as they are, they have to have the word COPY very big and obvious, which completlely ruins the effect of one side of what can be quite an expensive item. They need to learn a little subtlety.

WRL Neither Greek not Latin had a W .

I regret to say that Americans can over-do these things.

There are some very nice Italian "riconi" of expensive Italian coins, and some very nice British reproductions of Greek and Roman coins. These would however fool nobody, especially as the Italian ones are the wrong weight for silver or gold, and the British ones have very discreet letters tucked away indicating the manufacturer, often WRL. The British ones are for sale in reputable museums -- some are copied from coins in the Ashmolean (University) Museum in Oxford and are sold there, and they are widely sold in public museums in France and Italy, and at genuine Roman sites in Europe. Quite an export, actually.

When such things are made in the USA, as they are, they have to have the word COPY very big and obvious, which completlely ruins the effect of one side of what can be quite an expensive item. They need to learn a little subtlety.

WRL Neither Greek not Latin had a W .

hi y'all and PN,
as for u.s. coins, it is against u.s. law to copy or reproduce them in the u.s. unless they are marked as a 'copy' on the coin. this is the reason for the large word 'copy' on the coin if it is the same size as the original. coins made smaller or larger than the original do not have to have this on them. as for paper currency, it too is against the u.s. law to reproduce them, it is called counterfeiting. i do believe that all u.s. currency from a certain date is still usable. as an armed guard at bank in my short career as one, i saw a customer from a coin dealer bring in a couple of thousand dollar bills from the 1930's and the were still acceptable as currency. that was a sight to see to be sure, esp. for a collector of stamps and coins. one way to collect rare u.s. currency is to collect the BEP cards. they are issued by the Bureau of Printing and Engraving, the agency who prints our money. they are essentially show cards issued for the coin shows held in major cities across america. and they often have either rare stamps, or a rare bill from the past on them. i have an exampe of one in the image below. it is a cancelled on from a show held here in tampa, my home some years ago. sometimes the front is shown, sometimes the back. it really depends on what they show and the topic. but they are a work of engraved art. y'all see, PN ain't the only one full of good information. y'all take care now. and good nitety night to you too PN. don't let the bedbugs bite. or the 'squeeters.
a bientot,
cajunsr.

hi y'all and PN,
as for u.s. coins, it is against u.s. law to copy or reproduce them in the u.s. unless they are marked as a 'copy' on the coin. this is the reason for the large word 'copy' on the coin if it is the same size as the original. coins made smaller or larger than the original do not have to have this on them. as for paper currency, it too is against the u.s. law to reproduce them, it is called counterfeiting. i do believe that all u.s. currency from a certain date is still usable. as an armed guard at bank in my short career as one, i saw a customer from a coin dealer bring in a couple of thousand dollar bills from the 1930's and the were still acceptable as currency. that was a sight to see to be sure, esp. for a collector of stamps and coins. one way to collect rare u.s. currency is to collect the BEP cards. they are issued by the Bureau of Printing and Engraving, the agency who prints our money. they are essentially show cards issued for the coin shows held in major cities across america. and they often have either rare stamps, or a rare bill from the past on them. i have an exampe of one in the image below. it is a cancelled on from a show held here in tampa, my home some years ago. sometimes the front is shown, sometimes the back. it really depends on what they show and the topic. but they are a work of engraved art. y'all see, PN ain't the only one full of good information. y'all take care now. and good nitety night to you too PN. don't let the bedbugs bite. or the 'squeeters.
a bientot,
cajunsr.

This is becoming perilously close to the forbidden: advertising of wares which the writer sells !

Yes, of course you're right, it is obvious that counterfeiting is illegal. Obvious except to people who speak French, and they have to be warned on the banknote that it is punishable, by forced labour in many cases.

But I think the term "counterfeiting" only applies to current money, not to obsolete items only of interest to collectors. You might expect the ban to apply also to bullion gold coins, but apparently not in Italy. Perhaps this demonstrates how easily they can be checked by weight. These reproductions are on sale perfectly openly at newsagents, and in fact are better than the more expensive American ones.

The Bank of England will pay you the face value of any of its banknotes from any century, but you would be more than stupid to take them up on this .

hi PN,
i think this is ok, as long as i sell it on delcampe, right pascal? in fact, i think i saw someone advertise his delcampe store on the forum and it was allowed. if i am wrong, please let us know. the example was given just as such. i forgot that it was in my auction too. getting back to the coin thing, all countries have differing laws as demonstrated by the fake coins being produced and their markings. as for stamps, that seems to be another matter. many very good forgeries were produced in the 1900's by fournier and others which passed through the mails, much to the consternation of postal officials. of course, these are sought after by many collectors. however, modern forgeries have been cropping up made by new and very good techniques in printing with the aid of computers, dangerous fakes and these are the ones which pascal is referring too. and the APS. and they are not marked, which presents the problem to the novice collector or to an unscrupulous dealer who passes it along as genuine. so it is a gigantic problem in the making and needs to be stopped by we members of the APS. our own postal inspection service is catching counterfeiting rings making u.s. stamps and a recent article in linn's stamp news had a ring of hamas operatives in the u.s. making fake michigan cigarette tax stamps and made millions of dollars to fund their terrorist's plans. so the fake stamp problem is not just in the hobby, it is systemic for other and far more dangerous uses. hope y'all learned a little something today. take care. PEACE
a bientot,
cajunsr.

It has always struck me that it would be very easy for anyone to overprint or surcharge stamps, and if it looked a bit different, then it would be a new variety done at some obscure post office in difficult times. In fact, when I was about 10 I used my John Bull printing outfit to overprint some cheap British stamps " Irish Republic " . I also did some 3d on 2½d when the postal rates went up.

Let's face it, stamps are just bits of paper, with all the security appropriate to their original temporary value of a few pennies. You could fake bus tickets, too.

It has always struck me that it would be very easy for anyone to overprint or surcharge stamps, and if it looked a bit different, then it would be a new variety done at some obscure post office in difficult times. In fact, when I was about 10 I used my John Bull printing outfit to overprint some cheap British stamps " Irish Republic " . I also did some 3d on 2½d when the postal rates went up.

Let's face it, stamps are just bits of paper, with all the security appropriate to their original temporary value of a few pennies. You could fake bus tickets, too.

Hello my Forum friends,


Would you like to buy a fake stamp for an expensive price? Would you like to possess a fake stamp instead of the real one for the same price? How can you find out if a stamp is official or not if you do not have enough experience or the appropriate catalogues? How can an experienced stamp collector be sure that the stamp is official if he/she does not have it in front of his/her eyes?

Whether they are private issues, bogus, fake, forgeries, copies or you call them, we believe the buyer should be informed about this.

All I am asking is what terms should be used to describe such stamps. On the one hand, asking sellers to write FAKE or ILLEGAL STAMP in the title will scare the buyers away for sure. On the other hand, using a specialized terminology that only experienced collectors understand won't help either.

Can you help write a list of terms sellers should use?

I know that I have told you this already in my first message but I had to refocus this topic.

We take care of the stamps first, the other categories should follow so let's put the coins and banknotes aside for the moment ;)

Hello my Forum friends,


Would you like to buy a fake stamp for an expensive price? Would you like to possess a fake stamp instead of the real one for the same price? How can you find out if a stamp is official or not if you do not have enough experience or the appropriate catalogues? How can an experienced stamp collector be sure that the stamp is official if he/she does not have it in front of his/her eyes?

Whether they are private issues, bogus, fake, forgeries, copies or you call them, we believe the buyer should be informed about this.

All I am asking is what terms should be used to describe such stamps. On the one hand, asking sellers to write FAKE or ILLEGAL STAMP in the title will scare the buyers away for sure. On the other hand, using a specialized terminology that only experienced collectors understand won't help either.

Can you help write a list of terms sellers should use?

I know that I have told you this already in my first message but I had to refocus this topic.

We take care of the stamps first, the other categories should follow so let's put the coins and banknotes aside for the moment ;)

The word "fake" suggests an intention to deceive, which there would not be if it was declared. The word "illegal" suggests that the item has no right even to exist, or to be sold, and that would stop people buying it even at the appropriate low price.

It is perfectly legitimate to manufacture and sell reproductions for people who cannot afford, or do not want to pay for, the real thing. The most respectable museums do this, not least the British Museum. There is in Avignon a Grande Ecole which specialises in making reproduction antique furniture. A common word to use overall is REPRODUCTION, and this is what I suggest should be standard on delcampe. It has the advantages of being recognisable to the speakers of most languages, and applicable to most types of item.

There are (in addition to reproduction) special words like "restrike" and "retro-pattern" applied to coins of varying authenticity (some struck by the original government mint). I should have mentioned that the common coin reproductions in Italy always start life labelled "Riconio", but only on the packaging, not on the actual coin. "Patterns" were originally proposed designs made in small quantities and never issued, but now they are made for collectors (e.g. huge numbers of "pattern euros" for the UK and evenTurkey). I think the best term to cover something which is not and never was a real coin is FANTASY COIN. This also covers the quasi-respectable "retro-patterns" ( high quality fantasy coins of dead kings when the coin did not exist at all, e.g. an Australian silver 5s of Edward VIII, or indeed VII ).

There are two other categories, though. One is "CONTEMPORARY FORGERY", which may be hundreds of years old and worth more than a genuine coin. With coins, these were of course intended for spending. You may remember recent 10 franc (and one pound) forgeries, which a few people do collect. I rather doubt if there were any stamps quite like this. There are also a few highly valued "CONTEMPORAY REPLICAS" (e.g. in Australia during the war, replicas were made and sold of the invasion banknotes which had been printed in Japan, now in the catalogue under Oceania, because they were actually used in some Pacific islands. These replicas are worth ten times as much as the originals, and, yes, Forgeries of the Replicas exist, which shows you how tricky this all is !!! ).

The other category you mention: PRIVATE ISSUES. Presumably these would be stamps not really intended for postal use, or only for a limited private postal use (e.g. Herm, Lundy). There are stamps and coins and especially banknotes issued by breakaway provinces and various patriotic and political groups, e.g. Padania, Savoie, Katanga, Biafra. You will not in fact buy much in Chambéry with your Savoyard Livre, but equally you will not buy much in the Isle of Man in practice with your high value Isle of Man coins, though the lower value coins and notes are in dailly use. So this is a bit of a minefield. I think you will have to leave this to the collector. If somebody buys the stamps of Herm or the banknotes of Padania, it is up to him to have a reason for buying them and to know what they are and whether they are legitimate for his personal collection. In some cases the word FANTASY is again appropriate, but somebody may claim that the place exists and even that the item has been used on occasion. FANTASY is another good international word .

The coins of Lundy, pennies and halfpennies called "puffins" and "half-puffins", were issued by the owner of the island in 1929, and he was famously prosecuted for this and there was a big legal case. He lost, and the coins were declared invalid. Even so, this generated so much interest that they are still to be found in all the coin catalogues ..... It's a risky business. The stamps of Lundy, which are much less familiar, never had any legal problem at all. Lundy is there on the map, just as much as Alderney, whose coins are issued by the Royal Mint but are never used on the island ..... Whereas the coins of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are in normal use. Unless delcampe knows such details for the whole world, it needs to be very careful, I think .

hi y'all,
my point was for fakes and forgeries only, not reprints, cinderellas which the lundy issues fall under, or such. and i think pascal understands what i am talking about and so does seb. many forgeries abound say for the overprinted belgian issues and the 1914 red cross issues. for every rariety of the stamp world, there is a fake or forgery made of it. these are what are being copied and sold as fakes on delcampe (and good ones too), but not shown with a 'fake' marking on them. that is what i was referring to about the second rule. normally a fake or forged stamp would have been marked on the back of the stamp in english, french, or german 'false'. sometimes an expertisers mark is there, this means the stamp could be genuine. but the mark could be false too, therefore the stamp is a fake. again, it is up to the buyer's own knowlege of his hobby to weed out the good from the bad. the more experienced a collector is, the better he is prepared to ask a seller questions on his material. and i highly suggest that before a bid is made. better forwarned than out your money with no guarantees. as for the terms or termanology, i think that is not the question here. i think that rules about the fakes and forgeries are what is needed. describing a fake stamp without it being marked isn't going to stop it being sold as genuine in the future to a novice collector, am i not right on this point? let us get our 'termanology' straight. take care y'all. good discussion so far.
a bientot,
cajunsr.

“as for the terms or termanology, i think that is not the question here.”

That’s strange, I thought that was EXACTLY the question, posed twice by Pascal.

I have suggested the main terms REPRODUCTION, FANTASY, and also CONTEMPORARY FORGERY (presumably Contrefacon de l’Epoque). Only in the much less common third case would it be necessary to use more than one language.

I know that privately issued stamps used only for short specific journeys (usually from a small island to the mainland in the owner’s boat) are called LOCALS by English stamp collectors, and this might be a good term to use (for the more genuine ones). The stamps of some other islands are FANTASIES.

The stamps of Lundy and Herm are LOCALS. I have never heard this term “Cinderellas”, so it is probably not a good one to use worldwide for your purpose.

As for reprints, I would have thought it was very important to distinguish them. They are the same as the coins called “restrikes”, in fact they are cheap REPRODUCTIONS. When I collected stamps as a schoolboy, it was well-known that most of the stamps of the non-British South African States available to us were reprints, with a bright shiny new look. I think the same was true of Heligoland, in fact I think reprints tended to have been made in Germany .

So finally, all you need is:

REPRODUCTION, FANTASY, LOCAL, and CONTEMPORARY FORGERY (Fr CONTREFACON DE L’EPOQUE).

The coin equivalent for LOCAL would be TOKEN (Fr JETON), although this term is used for other miscellaneous things too.
The 20th century banknote or coin equivalent for LOCAL would be NOTGELD (Fr MONNAIE/ BILLET de NECESSITÉ) .

hi y'all,
hold your horses, quikstraw! not so fast.
this is a better list:

1. FAKE, BOGUS, OR FORGERY eg. fournier, etc.
2. CINDERELLA OR FANTASY
3. OFFICIAL REPRINT OR REISSUE
4. COUNTERFEIT (AS DONE TO DECEIVE A GOV'T.)
5. OFFICIAL REPRODUCTION
6. FACSIMILE

as for help in understanding the meaning of these terms, here are some links that will help:

from linn's stamp news: Link (http)

ask phil: Link (http)

museum of u.s. essays and proofs: Link (http)

u.s. national postal museum:Link (http)

S.C.A.D.S. (excellent site for fake warnings on internet auctions):
Link (http)

u.s. bureau of printing and engraving:
Link (http)

most of these sites are courtesy of the AMERICAN PHILATELIC SOCIETY. enjoy and learn.
a bientot,
cajunsr.

hi y'all,
my point was for fakes and forgeries only, not reprints, cinderellas which the lundy issues fall under, or such. and i think pascal understands what i am talking about and so does seb. many forgeries abound say for the overprinted belgian issues and the 1914 red cross issues. for every rariety of the stamp world, there is a fake or forgery made of it. these are what are being copied and sold as fakes on delcampe (and good ones too), but not shown with a 'fake' marking on them. that is what i was referring to about the second rule. normally a fake or forged stamp would have been marked on the back of the stamp in english, french, or german 'false'. sometimes an expertisers mark is there, this means the stamp could be genuine. but the mark could be false too, therefore the stamp is a fake. again, it is up to the buyer's own knowlege of his hobby to weed out the good from the bad. the more experienced a collector is, the better he is prepared to ask a seller questions on his material. and i highly suggest that before a bid is made. better forwarned than out your money with no guarantees. as for the terms or termanology, i think that is not the question here. i think that rules about the fakes and forgeries are what is needed. describing a fake stamp without it being marked isn't going to stop it being sold as genuine in the future to a novice collector, am i not right on this point? let us get our 'termanology' straight. take care y'all. good discussion so far.
a bientot,
cajunsr.

The stamps of Lundy were in fact genuine local issues:
Link (http)

like those of Herm :
Link (http)

Interestingly, both islands had a normal Royal Mail postal service until the post offices were closed, on Lundy in 1927 and on Herm in 1938. A local service with local stamps was the obvious and perfectly legitimate answer, although in the case of Herm it was not started until 1949 and ended when a new post office opened in 1969.
Collectors have every right to collect these stamps, which are in no way fantasies.

However, the Lundy coins were found to be illegal and are really fantasies – it is convenient to use the same terms for coins and stamps.There was no reason for islanders to shop in their own curency. It looks as though the stamps of Nagorno Karabakh are genuine locals, but again the coins and banknotes are probably fantasies, unless someone knows otherwise.

Another interesting point in this entangled web is that the coins of the Isle of Man (unlike those of Jersey and Guernsey) are NOT made by the Royal Mint. They are made by a private mint, but are still perfecty official and in daily use (except the high value collectors' ones). The illegal coins of Lundy were made by a private mint which (unusually) had been making some British pennies under contract for the Royal Mint, and the similarity in standard is probably what made them so endearing to the public at the time.

These are the criteria I use for all my listings:

"Stamps officially issued by offical postal administrations
and valid for domestic and/or foreign mail."

That is what I call STAMPS.

And additional it´s fair to mention when it occurs:
1.) reprint
2.) error- variety
3.) unissued
4.) possible forgery
5.) forgery

M.

P.S. When the word "stamps" are used in other cases
everyone should be fair to call them for what they are:

a.) Local stamps
b.) Bogus Stamps

In all other cases: Labels

For example; Where to put Chechnya?

Well there was a Chechenyan government in control of the postal services for some years. Indeed this government handled their own
postal service but ONLY for domestic mail and used their own stamps.
Therefore we can´t use the term "private issues" but "Local stamps" fits right alongside the Lundy stamps, no?

Most stamps with inscription Chechenya or similar are bogus but that is another story. Further that government was indeed in control of the aiirspace and had traffic with Dubai , Damaskus and Ankara but no foreign mail was officially transported this way or via Russia.

Rgds.
M.

Cajun forgets that we are not all learnèd American philatelists. A lot of the words he uses will often not be recognised by non-English-speaking buyers, and will seldom be used accurately by sellers. “Cinderella” is not even recognisable by English collectors, and is not in the dictionary in this sense.

Cajun restricts the useful and universal word “reproduction” only to official reproductions, implying that for unofficial ones the word is facsimile, yet you can have an official facsimile, and that word applies only to paper. If a seller has a Maria Theresa Thaler, how does he know if it is an official reissue, an official reproduction, an unofficial reissue, or an unofficial reproduction ? He doesn’t . Even if you knew that it was made (for example) by a government in London or Rome (rather than Vienna), its status would be very debatable. These were at least made for use, whereas the latest Vienna ones are purely for collectors. And in coins, this is the most common example of many. Similar problems occur with stamps, e.g. if you have an obvious Transvaal reprint -- did the European printer have official permission from the former Afrikaans government to produce them? Who can say ? The printers sold off unfinished Katanga banknotes after the state ceased to exist. Was that legal or official ?

He does not allow for local issues, private but useful rather than fantasy. I don’t believe that the stamps of Lundy were “Cinderellas” in his sense, and those of Herm were certainly not. They were actually in use in the period when there was no official post office on the island, from the end of the War until 1969 .

Away from the jurisdiction of the US Federal Government, the problems you can get into when trying to decide what is “official” are immense, as in this extract which one of Cajun’s own links takes us to. (Remember that the ethnic Armenian population and the Armenian government would see this quite differently ! Also, THERE ARE STAMPS, COINS, AND BANKNOTES FROM NAGORNO KARABAKH ON SALE ON DELCAMPE and on eBay, so what are you going to do ? The Armenians are the Christians and the Azerbaijanis are the Muslims, by the way ).

"As a follow-up to the previous circulars distributed by the UPU on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Azerbaijan (circulars Nos. 263 of 30 August 2004, 251 of 26 July 1999 and 426 of 20 December 1993), the Government of the Republic of Azerbaijan wishes to bring once more to the attention of the UPU member countries the continued unhindered production of illegal stamps under the name of the self-styled unrecognized separatist entity – the so-called 'Republic of Nagorno Karabakh' or 'Mountainous Karabakh'.
"These postage stamps are issued by the occupying power of Armenia and used for prepayment of postage on correspondence in violation of article 6 of the Universal Postal Convention. This practice harms the postal administration of the Republic of Azerbaijan, as well as the philatelic market, since these illegal issues are being promoted as stamps and are distributed and sold as postage stamps through philatelic publications, on the open Internet market and at philatelic exhibitions, and are being registered in well-known stamp catalogues.
"Concerning the status of the Nagorno Karabakh region, the Government of Azerbaijan wishes to remind the membership of the Union and the philatelic world that this region is an integral and inalienable part of the Republic of Azerbaijan within its internationally recognized boundaries and that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Azerbaijan have been recognized by the whole international community, including by the United Nations Security Council in its Resolutions 822 of 30 April 1993, 853 of 29 July 1993, 874 of 14 October 1993 and 884 of 12 November 1993 and by the United Nations General Assembly in its numerous Resolutions on Cooperation between the United Nations and the CSCE/OSCE (e.g. A/RES/49/13 of 15 November 1994, A/RES/57/298 of 6 February 2003).
"Therefore, Nagorno Karabakh region has no right to issue stamps without the consent of the central Azerbaijani Government. No country, whether or not it is a UPU member country, has the authority to issue and circulate postage stamps in the name of any constituent territory of Azerbaijan, ……”etc etc blah blah blah .

KEEP AWAY FROM DECIDING WHAT IS “OFFICIAL” !!!

At least these are IN USE. You might have thought they were fantasies, but Azerbaijan admits they are in use, thus shooting itself in the foot as far as most collectors are concerned. But it is up to the INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR to decide. In the UK, most coin dealers will not sell the issues of Palau, which are marketed without question in the USA .

Another important practical point is that, while you are making noble and just decisions, your sellers often do not know what they are selling anyway, or at least they put things into the wrong category. Even if they know they have a reproduction of some kind, they will not have any idea where or how it originated . Dealers with commercial contacts in exotic places (like the Caucasus) may know they have fantasies. Mainly, the terms REPRODUCTION or FANTASY, REPRODUCTION où FANTAISIE, is all you can expect. Most coin dealers who know they have a contemporary forgery will already make that clear, and we can only pray that the tokens/jetons categories will sometime be used correctly (also Notgeld/ Necessité) , but that seems almost impossible to achieve in practice.

hi PN,
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
what's that you said?
later gators,
cajunsr.

hi PN,
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
what's that you said?
later gators,
cajunsr.

When a country (or territory or call it whatever you want- a physical place on earth) is/was in power of having a postal administration) and de facto issues/edstamps which works/ed for domesic and foreign mail. Then it´s official. Everthing else is politics which is not the same as philately. Consequently Nagornao Karabakh, Turkish Republick of Northern Cyprus and Taiwan doesn´t not belong to the Local stamp group. But Lundy does. Anything esle?

Chau
M.

Your principal is pefectly correct, but your diagnosis of the stamps of Nagorno Karabakh appears to be incorrect. Remember that Armenia is on their side, Azerbaijan is against them, It is Azerbaijan making a big noise, saying they are not official stamps. But Azerbaijan admits that they are in use (only) for local mail.

Therefore Nagorno Karabakh is a territory where those in power have a postal administration which works for domestic mail, therefore it DOES belong to the official LOCAL stamp group, like Lundy or Herm. But I very strongly suspect that its coins and banknotes, like those of Kurdistan, are FANTASIES, that is what you would call in this case political, and money-making.

I think we must accept this. Azerbaijan would have absolutely no reason to say that the stamps of Nagorno Karabakh are in local use if it was not true. They have nothing to gain from this, quite the reverse.

Taiwan ? The stamps of Taiwan are normal stamps used for posting letters within and from Taiwan. Do you really mean doesn't, or with your double negative, does ? Yet Lundy does. Please explain. [ Perhaps you mean that Nagorno Karabakh and Taiwan are not local. But the stamps of Nagorno Karabakh are not valid for foreign mail ].

Taiwan has perfectly normal banknotes and coins in all the catalogues too. There is no question whatever that they might be fantasies. Whether you like it or not, Taiwan has broken away from China like Norway from Denmark, and there it is ! Nagorno Karabakh has broken away from Azerbiajan, but other countries don't recognise it, so the stamps remain local. You can't avoid taking the politics into account.

In the case of coins, there are lots of coins issued with government approval by small territories like the Isle of Man and equally by large territories like the UK and France which would never be accepted in normal business for making payments. It is quite tricky to decide on their status. In practice, especially with the rather popular Jersey and Guernsey, some collectors do not recognise them, but continue to collect the normal coins.